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View Poll Results: Creationism, Evolutionism or other...?
You believe in a god or sole intelligent creator of the universe; diest, thiest whatever... 13 30.23%
You are not sure; Agnostic 5 11.63%
You believe in a scientific explination such as Darwanism; Athiest 20 46.51%
Other i.e. You believe your aunt Martha created life 5 11.63%
Voters: 43. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 26-10-2009, 12:10
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POLL: Evolutionism, Creationism or other..

Getting my bearings straight as to which way this forum sides as a non-believer forum would better serve ExP.
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Old 26-10-2009, 13:13
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Originally Posted by is4fun View Post
Getting my bearings straight as to which way this forum sides as a non-believer forum would better serve ExP.

..ahem.. who dropped dead and left you god/moustaches/boss to assume this decision ?
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Old 26-10-2009, 17:53
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Originally Posted by robertmf View Post

..ahem.. who dropped dead and left you god/moustaches/boss to assume this decision ?
Very simple answer. Let the poll decide. DA
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Old 26-10-2009, 21:44
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I've read past international polls on this one. Most of us believe there is a God or some intelligant form of a creator. But we don't necessarily believe in garbage that humans have written in old books such as the first or second testament. However many of us believe in the meaning of some parable or stories mentioned in the bible.

The problem when we pick and which ones are true and which ones are false.

Unfortunately we can use the bible for good and severe evil, as seen in our history. When we see so much power given to religous leaders, and so much wealth, and evil involved with such people we begin to wonder if human control is really what it should be. Were these people or were they simply selfish and greedy, and only thinking of themselves. I'm sorry but church is richer than the queen of England, claimed in the Guinness book of records at one time as the richest woman in the world. Even in Russia the religous are trying to clai back estates of which would make them the richest in Russia.

Look at for example in English history with Queen Elizath 1st. The number of catholics and protestents killed in hatred due to hatred. What about the longest war in History, with France and England. What kept it going and made soldiers fight to death. YES! In the belief that God was on their side. Bravery appears to be in having a religous belief and in believing to die for GOD.

I think we have all been fooled by a few greedy people throughout history up to today. Human controlled religion is the devil and evil.

Don't you realise that fighting and war we use ordinary men to fight to death, die and kill for the reason that GOD is on your side and your country, How many times have you read that Britains' conquests were all due to the fact that God was on their side.

YES there is a creator. But don't believe in human words coming from those humans who seek personal wealth or power.
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Old 26-10-2009, 22:02
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OK. It's going for scientific explanation like Darwin. But who made the tiny piece of dust who created all that intelligance on Earth and the UNiverse of which the scientists are still seeking all full knowledge of it. Who did it.

DUH! The fragment of dust?
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Old 26-10-2009, 22:04
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OK let's be fair about it that we will never know. Who created GOD! Isn't life amazing. It is imposssible to know. So let's stop trying.
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Old 26-10-2009, 23:37
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Originally Posted by Bels View Post
OK let's be fair about it that we will never know. Who created GOD!
Life, The Universe, and Everything was created by a statistical fluctuation in the quantum vacuum.

Daylight Atheism > The Case for a Creator: It’s All Because of Quantum
(n.b. link does not necessarily represent the views of this poster)
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Old 27-10-2009, 10:18
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Bels- if you are going for a scientific explanation then there is no point in worrying about 'who?'. To ask 'who?' is to think in terms of a supernatural creator, while scientific explanations rely on natural and impersonal processes that can be replicated and observed (for example in hadron colliders like CERN).


About this religion thing:

In fact I think a lot of religious concepts are scientifically justified- for example the idea that time is not linear, and that our experience of time is largely an illusion. Lots of Christians and Buddhists would agree with that.
I'd say that the Christian debate about human free will- (does it exist?) is also a moot point in scientific circles. Calvinists and many neurologists would agree that it's also an illusion.

But the concept of 'God' as a supernatural entity is by definition unprovable and outside the realm of science. An interesting idea to speculate about, but not something to get dogmatic or pontificate about. That's why I tend towards religious ideas that don't rely on the supernatural, such as Buddhism, which is pretty much agnostic about Gods, Angels, Devils and the like.
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  #9  
Old 27-10-2009, 21:20
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I do appreciate the comments from all members of this forum and new members alike. My interest in this thread are seated in why it is that one would believe in an entity that was able to create all, see all, feel all, and determine one’s fate? I mean not to humiliate nor discourage others’ reasoning’s. (Although sometimes I do and will only because the reasoning behind their explanations never register because of my inferior intelligence, my poor comprehension of their explanation, or people simply believe that I am an idiot). I simply wish to understand the actual thoughts, theories, warmth’s, and understandings of people who actually do believe in a higher entity. I request one simple question if you decide to participate in this forum; Why do you believe? A very simple question that I am sure will emit a very reasonable response. Why is there this propensity to keep on believing? This word –faith- for example, is defined as a general persuasion of the mind that a certain statement is true. If anyone can explain how religion and this word faith come together I would appreciate it very much. Thank you.
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  #10  
Old 01-11-2009, 20:19
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Originally Posted by Bels View Post
I've read past international polls on this one. Most of us believe there is a God or some intelligant form of a creator. But we don't necessarily believe in garbage that humans have written in old books such as the first or second testament. However many of us believe in the meaning of some parable or stories mentioned in the bible.

The problem when we pick and which ones are true and which ones are false.

Unfortunately we can use the bible for good and severe evil, as seen in our history. When we see so much power given to religous leaders, and so much wealth, and evil involved with such people we begin to wonder if human control is really what it should be. Were these people or were they simply selfish and greedy, and only thinking of themselves. I'm sorry but church is richer than the queen of England, claimed in the Guinness book of records at one time as the richest woman in the world. Even in Russia the religous are trying to clai back estates of which would make them the richest in Russia.

Look at for example in English history with Queen Elizath 1st. The number of catholics and protestents killed in hatred due to hatred. What about the longest war in History, with France and England. What kept it going and made soldiers fight to death. YES! In the belief that God was on their side. Bravery appears to be in having a religous belief and in believing to die for GOD.

I think we have all been fooled by a few greedy people throughout history up to today. Human controlled religion is the devil and evil.

Don't you realise that fighting and war we use ordinary men to fight to death, die and kill for the reason that GOD is on your side and your country, How many times have you read that Britains' conquests were all due to the fact that God was on their side.

YES there is a creator. But don't believe in human words coming from those humans who seek personal wealth or power.
Hi Bels!
Wanna take me on? (in a civil and courteous debate, of course)

"Garbage" written in the Old and New testaments? What, exactly, pray tell, qualifies as "garbage", and on what basis?

I think you are quite right that the problem is when we pick which ones are true and which false. If any human 'picks' on their own, they will naturally choose that which suits them. The problem is when the human makes himself, the individual, the mortal being born a few years ago and dying a few years from now, the final authority on what is truth.

A conclusion one could easily draw from your words is that power is 'safer' for us when given to secular leaders, like A. Hitler, or P. Pot. You seem (seem being the operative word) to exaggerate the 'threat' of Christianity considerably, as if it could ever be the threat that, say, Islam, is of coercion to external freedom.

Your example of the Protestant-Catholic conflict in English history is based on cant, although it is understandable, given how the view you express is the standard one expressed in modern middle and high school history books. A thinking person can rise above the assumptions planted in him in school indoctrination. The Nazis, for the most part, did their evil without special claims of having God on their side. Although it HAS been a cause, religion, by and large, is responsible more for the restraint of evil in history than it is of being the cause of it. It is the belief that some things are wrong and others right and a dogmatic basis for that that has done most to discourage evil and encourage good.

I agree on human-controlled religion. The exception would be that which is ultimately not actually controlled by humans. And it is rather easy to prove that the overwhelming majority of people serving in the established institutions of the major world religions are not doing it in spite of their faith (ie, for money); and so that would not be a motive to disbelieve them.
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Old 01-11-2009, 20:37
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Originally Posted by Ian G View Post
About this religion thing:

In fact I think a lot of religious concepts are scientifically justified- for example the idea that time is not linear, and that our experience of time is largely an illusion. Lots of Christians and Buddhists would agree with that.
I'd say that the Christian debate about human free will- (does it exist?) is also a moot point in scientific circles. Calvinists and many neurologists would agree that it's also an illusion.

But the concept of 'God' as a supernatural entity is by definition unprovable and outside the realm of science. An interesting idea to speculate about, but not something to get dogmatic or pontificate about. That's why I tend towards religious ideas that don't rely on the supernatural, such as Buddhism, which is pretty much agnostic about Gods, Angels, Devils and the like.
You have no free will to even read this page. It has been caused. You must read it. It is your destiny!

To the man of common sense, denial of free will (causality, or determinism) is simple nonsense; or more accurately, hopelessly complicated nets which sophists cast and catch themselves in.

Calvin and Hobbes fatalism.gif

There is no logical reason as to why the supernatural should be excluded, except on a blind dogma that the only truths that can exist are those that can be discovered by the scientific method. The problem of being able to know the supernatural hinges on the question of what the authority is that reveals knowledge to us.
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  #12  
Old 02-11-2009, 21:37
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Originally Posted by Bels View Post
I've read past international polls on this one. Most of us believe there is a God or some intelligant form of a creator. But we don't necessarily believe in garbage that humans have written in old books such as the first or second testament. However many of us believe in the meaning of some parable or stories mentioned in the bible.

The problem when we pick and which ones are true and which ones are false.

Unfortunately we can use the bible for good and severe evil, as seen in our history. When we see so much power given to religous leaders, and so much wealth, and evil involved with such people we begin to wonder if human control is really what it should be. Were these people or were they simply selfish and greedy, and only thinking of themselves. I'm sorry but church is richer than the queen of England, claimed in the Guinness book of records at one time as the richest woman in the world. Even in Russia the religous are trying to clai back estates of which would make them the richest in Russia.

Look at for example in English history with Queen Elizath 1st. The number of catholics and protestents killed in hatred due to hatred. What about the longest war in History, with France and England. What kept it going and made soldiers fight to death. YES! In the belief that God was on their side. Bravery appears to be in having a religous belief and in believing to die for GOD.

I think we have all been fooled by a few greedy people throughout history up to today. Human controlled religion is the devil and evil.

Don't you realise that fighting and war we use ordinary men to fight to death, die and kill for the reason that GOD is on your side and your country, How many times have you read that Britains' conquests were all due to the fact that God was on their side.

YES there is a creator. But don't believe in human words coming from those humans who seek personal wealth or power.
I would tend to disagree with you. If all the people of the world had an equal opportunity to receive an education as offered to many in the west, I would think many, if not in this generation, certainly the second, would grow exponentially to believe religion is a falsehood perpetuated by those who either know not better or prey on those who know less.
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Old 06-11-2009, 19:34
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Bels, to call the Testament "garbage" is taking things really too far. After all much of the world art and culture is based on the Bible, even if we do not speak about the faith.

As Ian G has said above, believing in God does not exclude scientific explanations. For example, the creation of the world within six days does not mean there were literally six days 24 hours each. It should be interpreted more broadly. Many things in the Bible are symbolic.

In answer to is4fun: one can hardly explain the reason for believing in God as one can hardly explain the reason for loving somebody. You just believe or love.

Personally I would feel very bad thinking that there is no God. Because then there would be little hope left for something good in the future. It would make the life totally useless and meaningless, knowing there is so much evil happening and there is nothing to hope for.
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Old 07-11-2009, 13:22
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It is usually a pretty futile discussion: you can't argue someone out of a position he didn't argue himself into, and if you have faith why would you be needing proofs?
I seen a lot of agnostics shouting at each other on-line, persuaded they are anything but agnostics. I believe in none of the religions, but God preserve us all from evangelical atheists.
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Old 08-11-2009, 07:08
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Originally Posted by Moskauerin View Post
Bels, to call the Testament "garbage" is taking things really too far. After all much of the world art and culture is based on the Bible, even if we do not speak about the faith.

As Ian G has said above, believing in God does not exclude scientific explanations. For example, the creation of the world within six days does not mean there were literally six days 24 hours each. It should be interpreted more broadly. Many things in the Bible are symbolic.

In answer to is4fun: one can hardly explain the reason for believing in God as one can hardly explain the reason for loving somebody. You just believe or love.

Personally I would feel very bad thinking that there is no God. Because then there would be little hope left for something good in the future. It would make the life totally useless and meaningless, knowing there is so much evil happening and there is nothing to hope for.
A belief in God can be explained. Had we been raised in the Amazon jungle as natives or Bushmen of the Kalahari in Africa, our beliefs would be much different as we would have been brainwashed into thinking how our immediate society explained things unexplainable at that time. Voodoo would be a good example. Love is a natural chemical process that is created through physiology. For lack of a better word, it is instinctive. For example, many tests had been conducted on animals, especially apes that revolved around separating the infant from its mother. The infant would naturally bond in some way to a doll placed in the same cage. However cruel these experiments may seem is not for me to judge but in their aftermath have provided a scientific explanation that is understandable to those who do study science. I am confident if similar experiments were conducted by devout Christians, Buddhists or Muslims the outcomes would have been explained quite differently.

World art and culture could have been just as easily based from any other ruling majority. Had our ancestors adopted Alice in Wonderland as a book of truth, we’d be inundated with rabbit Saints. Is this very different from worshipping elephants or monkeys or other animals like many do in India? My problem with the testaments is exactly that they are interpreted at all and not read simply as interesting fiction.

I should think that one would feel better in a non-belief of a superior entity as your reward is determined after you die. It’s all so posthumous.

I really am not sure what you mean here: “It would make the life totally useless and meaningless, knowing there is so much evil happening and there is nothing to hope for.”
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