Ethnic Russian faces

A quick question for our Russian readers from a badly educated Englishman....... ;-)

IS it actually possible to look at the face of an ethnic Russian and say - ahhhhh yes, she`s a Tatar, he`s from Turkmenistan, Kyrgyzia.... are there actually distinctive facial features still amongst ethnic Russian groups which allows an observer to make a guess at where they`re from ?

Or has there been so much "interbreeding" (sorry !!!) that it`s impossible to tell ?

Dave ;-))

[Akila Pils]

The Tatars are noticeble, right? But I have no clue how to distinguish all those central asians from eachother though.

"to look at the face of an ethnic Russian and say - ahhhhh yes, she`s a Tatar, he`s from Turkmenistan, Kyrgyzia"

Had you said "at the face of a Russian", I would have had no problems with that. But you actually said "an _ethnic_ Russian". How can an ethnic Russian possibly be a Tatar, let alone a Turkmen or Kirghiz? The fact that the Russian Empire once made those peoples her subjects does not mean they magically become _ethnic_ Russians. Compare that to the British Empire and India: the latter used to be a part of the former, but would you call the Hindus British, or even English, or _ethnic_ Anglo-Saxon (or Celtic)?

Speaking of the facial features, _ethnic_ Russians can be easily distinguished from _ethnic_ Tatars, Turkmen and Kirghiz. The latter have characteristically Asian look, while the former are hardly distinguishable from the central and northern Europeans (and most British); the southern Europeans look more like those Caucasian ethnic groups (Georgian, Armenian, etc), collectively known as "blackass" to the Russians :-)

Differentiating between the Tatars and say the Turkmen is trickier. When you see them routinely, you start picking some subtle differences. To somebody who sees them only infrequently (which surprisingly applies to many Russians) they are all and the same "sliteye"; except that perhaps the Tatars (and many others in the European part of Russia) are generally bigger and stouter, apparently due to the fact that they have been "civilized" longer than the other ethnic Asians, thus better fed and suffering less hardships, which shows up with generations.

[investor]

Surely you can say "she's a tatar", but at the same time you might be wrong, because some russians can looks like tatars........

[Polia Ivanova]

Originally posted by investor Surely you can say "she's a tatar", but at the same time you might be wrong, because some russians can looks like tatars........

They have some common features like darkish hair, brown eyes and so on but I had a professor in Uni last name Nuriev (very tatar last name) and he was very blond almost albino. I met more tatars like this.
Sometimes people react very etnically funny on a last name of a person as indication of his/her etnicity. I am sure there will be plenty of Russians who won't consider this Chelsey chap Abramovich Russian.
Personally I think English do have similar faces. Winston Churchill and Margaret Thatcher are lookalike.

Hm, dunno about the English all looking the same, Polia - I can see regional differences all around me - there`s a "Welsh" look, Edinburgh look, Glasgow look - people even look different in the South of England.... Cornwall, Devon.... Bristol.... "working class" and "aristocracy" - I suppose it`s because I`m very used to what my own countrymen look like.....

.... but I have no idea about ethnic Russians. ;-)))))

Forgetting the national costume below, is this a typical Tatar face ? Reason why I ask is because my ex fiancee had some features which I think were Tatar or Kavkaz - almond shaped eyes, wide jaw..

Oh yes, for those interested - a map of the distribution of ethnic peoples in Russia.

I was astonished to find out some years ago that there were supposedly over 100 different ethnic groups in Russia. It`s our own cultural ignorance in the West - to us, "Russia" means "Russian".....

Originally posted by bad manners collectively known as "blackass" to the Russians :-)

..... yep, I know the phrase - "chernozhopi" - ahemmm - but what I`m saying is that these people all are from ethnic groups, they live in Russia, and therefore the phrase I used was "ethnic Russian". ;-)) Matter of definition.

Not an insult I`d care to levy on anyone - to us, they`re all "Russian" - big sweeping geographical term. ;-) Admittedly, a Yakut reindeer herdsman and a city broker from St Pete are perhaps a little different in outlook, but there they all are in Russia... ;-))))

"is this a typical Tatar face ?"

No, definitely no. She might be a mix, though. Many inhabitants of Russia are weird mixtures. Don't forget that the males of those non-Russian ethnic groups often marry perfectly Russian babes -- natural blondes and all. Guess what the outcome might be. That has been going on for ages, by the way, even when the Tartars were the most dreadful enemy of the Russians, they would kill the men and the children, but take away the girls, partly for sale, partly for themselves.

"I was astonished to find out some years ago that there were supposedly over 100 different ethnic groups in Russia."

Strange, actually. I would perhaps accept that from a German, because they have no natural idea of what being an empire means. But the Brits should be quite different with regards to that, don't you think so?

Originally posted by bad manners "is this a typical Tatar face ?" No, definitely no.

Hm ! Pretty interesting ! ;-) Y`see, that`s what "Tatar" means to me.... I think I need to get my definitions right. ;-)))))))

Ahhhhh yes, of course, Russia was an empire..... but over here, e tend to think of Russia as a country - a single entity from Ukraine to Kamchatka. Or we did, anyway. It`s a result of the old USSR days, I think, bad manners, when these mysterious people called "Russians" all lived ... "somewhere over there." ;-))))))

Of course, life in the USSR for different ethnic groups was "interesting" under Stalin, but..... it`s just not something that was general knowledge over here. To most people, what happened behind the former "iron curtain" was a total mystery and we all never really thought of "Russia" as being an empire containing different ethnic groups at all.

And don`t forget, I was ENGAGED to a Russian lady and studied Russian history at University. Even now, virtually nothing is taught about what happened in Russia before 1905 - at University, the history of Russia starts with the Russo - Japanese war. I was quite amazed to find out about the early history of Russia and - as you say - Tatar raiding parties into Russia. Perhaps it`s the result of me being from a former empire - we only ever hear about the history of our OWN empire. ;-)))))))

Interesting stuff ! ;-)))))))))

'Not an insult I`d care to levy on anyone - to us, they`re all "Russian" - big sweeping geographical term.'

That's because the terms you're using are all bad. The Brits (those non-English) are surprised to no end when they are all called "Englishmen" by the Russians -- as far as I know the word "Britanets", which is "a British" in Russian, is not widely used by the Russians, same for the country name. And then you do the same identification of "the inhabitants of Russia" with "the Russians". This is the norm everywhere outside Russia, so I guess it has to be accepted peacefully now (that raises The Lemming Question, though). But if you attach the word "ethnic" to "the Russians", then you ought to be a bit more careful, because that now will mean the descendants of a few (not all!) Slavic tribes once thriving at one certain place.

Ahhhhh, now my head hurts... ;-)

[uninformed]

However, the Russians use these distinctions (Kurz, Uzbek, Tartar, Jew, Georgian, etc) to discriminate AGAINST them. They hate the Chechnyans, of course, and don't care much for the Georgians and other "Caucasions." You can't be Tartar and Russian in their minds. Or Jewish and Russian.

This is all terribly ingrained racism. If you're of African or Italian or Jewish heritabe and live in the UK, Canada, or the US you are considered a Brit, Canadian, or American first and foremost. You might talk about yourself as an Italian-American or an African-American but you never leave out the "American" part. In Russia, it is the "nationality" that matters - African, Kurgish, etc.

'> Y`see, that`s what "Tatar" means to me.... I think I need to get my definitions right. ;-)))))))'

Have a look at the photos of a singer-girl here:

http://www.peoples.org.ru/tatar/184.html

Observe that the girl does everything to have a more kinda European look. I do not mean to imply that the European type is somehow superior, but as almost all the celebrities in the world look like that, that apparently sets an ideal for every girl out there. It is actually hard to find a good photo with truly Tatar features, for the same reason I guess.

I like the group photo on that page because the male faces are more like it. The final photo is more revealing, too.

'> However, the Russians use these distinctions (Kurz, Uzbek, Tartar, Jew, Georgian, etc) to discriminate AGAINST them. They hate the Chechnyans, of course, and don't care much for the Georgians and other "Caucasions."'

Your profile indicates that you live in Russia. But your words can hardly confirm it. The Russians care a lot about the Caucasians, especially in large cities. There is even a PC euphemism for "blackass", litso kavkazkoy natsionalnosty (LKN), "a Caucasian National", it includes the Chechens, by the way. I'm not saying they have good grounds for that, but they _are_ concerned about them, a lot more than about the Kurds (is that what you meant by Kurz?), Uzbeks, Tatars and Jews. Get your facts straight. Ironically, most of those LKNs are true foreigners in Russia _now_, so identifying the Georgians with the Russians is similar to identifying the Slovenians with the Slovaks (these are not Russian either, just in case)

Also keep in mind that those ethnic groups _want_ to preserve their ethnic identity. For example, the new Russian IDs were supposed to drop the “nationality” (i.e., ethnic origin) field, but it was the Tatars who protested to that. I do not know the outcome of that, though. This is not different from the rest of Europe, all ethnic groups, small or large, insist on continuing their existence. Sometimes it takes extreme forms, like in Spain, in Yugoslavia, in UK/Ireland. That is a bit difficult to understand for the Americans, the British are well acquainted with that.

'> This is all terribly ingrained racism. If you're of African or Italian or Jewish heritabe and live in the UK, Canada, or the US you are considered a Brit, Canadian, or American first and foremost. [...] In Russia, it is the "nationality" that matters - African, Kurgish, etc.'

That is wrong again. The ethnic Russians and the other ethnic groups that are located within the CIS first and foremost have a sense of similarity, and it is only after that sense of similarity when they start "discriminating". There is no word for this sense of similarity now, but it was there once. That word was the "Soviet People". Africans, of course, never were the Soviet People; Kurgish, whatever that means, never were Russian, so why would either of these two "nationalities" be considered Russian?

Actually, wait, there is the word "Rossian" (notice the 'o'), apparently invented by Yeltsin, which means "everybody who lives in Russia, the Russians, the Tatars, the Jews, etc". So it is the English language that lacks a proper term for that. Until it has one, we might use "Russian Nationals" or "Russian Citizens". Little hope here, though :-)

:-) Thanks for the detailed reply, Bad Manners - I`m still stuck with the old idea of "Soviet Peoples" here... ;-) All seemed so much simpler then.... ;-)))))))

Aha, right - "Tatar". Now, I understand... you`re right, it seems that finding someone with "classic" Tatar / Uzbek / whatever features is a little difficult nowadays !

All interesting stuff - when I was in Russia, I saw faces with features totally unlike any I`d ever seen before. I realy would like to see some of the republics one day. Thanks. ;-)